For the Nth time, Bankroll Management!
How many times has this topic been mentioned in this blog? I can never reiterate how important game selection is. It's just as important was knowing when to fold. Why? Coz turning down a game you know you can't handle is just the same as mucking a marginal hand when overcards are showing on the flop. The game does not start when the dealer shuffles the cards. The game starts when you pay for your buy-in. If the game you're gna be playing will hurt your bankroll, don't play. If you know ur wallet is gna hurt if you lose, then you might as well engrave it in stone that YOU WILL LOSE. Your game will be different coz at the back of your mind, you are defensive. You're protecting something. It's very very simple and easy to grasp. I don't care how good you are or how brave you are, but it's just stupid to play a game you can't handle. It's even more stupid if you continue to keep playing after you lost. This quote is from a book I just read:
"A loser's favorite game is to play catch-up. that is, they lose and keep playing, hoping to win back their losses. players who are being responsible will play what they can afford and stop when they reach that limit, true, both are losing. responsible players will be disappointed, but will not sulk for the rest of the day or stay to lose more. winners will take teir losses and play another day not only because they have reached a loss limit but also for other reasons. such reasons may be noticing changing conditions at the table or feelings like simple not wanting to play any more. these are the reasons that a winner usually leaves whether ahead or behind. losers will just keep playing and losing. their feelings in the end will be the negative payoff losers are accustomed to collecting. when winners lose, they're disappointed and don't collect such negative payoffs. they get on with other things until they play again. winners know how to lose. losers cannot allow themselves to lose. even when luck is against them, losers will chase their luck as if it is just around the corner."
posted by boy of destiny @ 8:04 PM
13 Comments:
tipsy is tilting... I wonder why...
it's all about the roll, lets be patience and play more cards, see more hands. We will get there soon... all it takes is a lil patience.
yeah he's right. you cant play your game if you are uncomfortable with the stakes. The most extreme example would be the Andy Beal vs. "the corporation" (doyle brunson and several other of the best pros in the world) heads-up match. the pros lost to him, why? they were uncomfortable with the stakes. (50000/100000 blinds limit holdem, $10,000,000 buy-in per side.) Even gus hansen couldnt handle it and only played until he lost a certain amount. The money didnt matter to Beal, a billionaire banker.
but then, if the game you are playing will not hurt your bankroll, it only means that it will not INCREASE your bankroll too? does that make sense? no matter what we say, it will all boil down to profitability, which is how we keep "score" in poker. The only way to know if you are a winning player or not is if you are making money out of playing.
i learned that i can play for hours on end only to learn that i earned 50-100/hr i played. yeah you can win big sometimes, but im saying long term, every single day playing. playing at higher stakes and with the same bankroll, it isnt a SURE LOSS. You can be profitable if you pick your spots and, like grouch says, if you play "super tight is right". now, once youve upped to your desired profitable amount for the night, cash out!
But dont play if it means using your rent money or bills money or something like that. If it is just you poker bankroll, and you KNOW you can handle the big game, why not?
before you plan on moving to the higher stakes, make sure you've dominated the lower stakes first. nick g had a post about this too, one of his earlier posts, the tale of the two bankrolls.
a winning player will take care of his roll like a little baby. he will nurture it, grow it, and make it healthy and strong. there is no 'grow up' pill to make the baby jump years and become an adult overnight.
if the game you're playing does not hurt your bankroll, it doesn't mean you can't increase your bankroll. a good player will make his roll grow even if he's playing in low stakes. that's what i mean by dominating your field first before you move on the the major league.
if you win 50-100/hr consistently, then by all means, move up to the higher stakes. but until you can prove you can do it consistently, then how sure are you that your game can handle higher stakes?
remember, a winning poker player can still win even when he's losing. that's what we all want to be.
first of all, with regards to game selection, there are only 3 choices right now here in this country. either you play the regular home game weekly SNG's tournament style, go to the state of mind and play the 10/20 table, or play THE ONLY big table in this country right now, the 50/100.
with bankroll management, i believe NOBODY has been playing long enough, except maybe for nick or barb, here in this country to gauge their profitablity in the long term. I have only been playing the ring game for about almost 2 months straight now, and yes i've been profitable, but insignificantly. (my profit of about 4 hours of play is only enough to take my gf out to a movie or something!)
the thing is, if you have the luxury of having a REAL poker bankroll, as in a significant amount of money you DONT touch at all except for poker, then good. But where do you take it? again, what are "higher stakes"? where are "the big leagues?" i know of only ONE high stakes game, if you can call it that.(the 50/100 table.) so, if you play regularly and consistently against the regular 50/100 player in the 10/20 game, and more or less can gauge yourself on how good you are playing against them, then wny not play them in the "big" stakes?
an example would be that i've been playing more and more with big wally, a regular las vegas poker player who plays $10/$20 NLHE NO MAX BUY big table in the bellagio, and $100/$200 limit holdem. i can observe that i'm not too bad when playing with him, and so are other players like fish and grouch. we play with him at the small table, and sometimes in the big table. I think that's as close as we can get to playing the "big stakes" players right now here locally.
it doesnt mean that because i played at the big table that i've "moved up to higher stakes". it simply means i TRIED to play stakes that hurt. I could say anybody who has played that game has increased their knowledge of the Game exponetially.
im just talking about real life, ACTUAL situations , and not something from a book.
as much as we'd like to think a lot like the pros, beggars cant be choosers. right now, we dont have the luxury of game selection. having a Bankroll is even a luxury to most!
if we were in the states, where 50 million people play everyday,and you have limitless games to choose from, i would totally agree with you absolutely.
but we are in the philippines, where filling up a 100 seater tourney is already an incredible feat. i dont think we have the luxury of game selection yet. just play the games available, see where you are comfortable, and play wisely.
great thread. all make good points. won't make another point. just wanted to post cuz i'm a forum whore. peace out...
maverick said...
so, if you play regularly and consistently against the regular 50/100 player in the 10/20 game, and more or less can gauge yourself on how good you are playing against them, then wny not play them in the "big" stakes?
because the high stakes player simply has more money to burn. it's like playing bill gates in a 5/10 table today, 10/20 tomorrow, 100/200 the next, 1000/2000 after that, then 100000/200000 next week, then 1 billion/2 billion after that. guess who's going to win? the guy with the bigger roll will win because he won't get hurt too much.
it's not who you're playing. it's what's at stake. the andy beal vs the corporation is a great example. even if the pros have more skill, andy beal has more roll. that's why he won.
maverick said...
as much as we'd like to think a lot like the pros, beggars cant be choosers. right now, we dont have the luxury of game selection. having a Bankroll is even a luxury to most!
Nobody is compelled to play any game... just because there are very few games means that you must play the ones available. you still have a choice believe it or not.
but we are in the philippines, where filling up a 100 seater tourney is already an incredible feat. i dont think we have the luxury of game selection yet. just play the games available, see where you are comfortable, and play wisely.
actually, the game is growing in popularity so much that you can actually have tournaments every week. and again, you don't have to play the games available.
everybody should have a bankroll. a bankroll isn't a luxury, it's a necessity.
We DO have tournaments every week, we even have games EVERYDAY!
i dont think we have a choice, other than what is available. can you give me an example of the choices we have? if you want the best games, i believe there is only one state of mind where you can achieve that. (PLUG!)
bankroll is a neccesity TO THE PROS and serious poker players, not to home game, play for fun, type of players (which right now is 90% of the players in the country). And believe me, it IS a luxury in the philippines. as much as we'd like to consider ourselves "pros" and use game theory and quote books, we still have to be practical. i know some great, solid players who would LOVE to have a bankroll. guess what, theyre not young rich kids who ask money from their parents and call it a bankroll, but ordinary people working normal jobs, paying bills, expenses and the like.
Poker is growing here exponentially, and we need each other's help to make it grow more. We dont have to worry about "game selection" right now, do we? Lets just play, meet new people, make the poker community grow. If we start isolating ourselves and for "groups" or "factions" and be choosy and not play with each other, it really wont help our poker community.
and i think most will agree.
to the bbc! hehe.
What I'm saying is, if you can't afford to have a bankroll, poker isn't really the best game for you now is it? It's not really wise to spend hard earned cash on playing poker if it means you're going to sacrifice paying bills or feeding your family.
But then again, a bankroll can start out small like say, 500 pesos. If you set it aside and grow it, then before you know it, you have a poker bankroll.
The problem is, because of the rapid growth of the poker scene, we DO need to worry about game selection all the more. Game selection does not mean isolation or choosing who to play with. Game selection isn't personal, it's practical and saves a lot of cash. If you want to meet people, you can just go to the poker game and observe without playing. Nobody will condemn you for choosing not to play because your roll can't afford it.
I mean c'mon, this isn't about donating cash to the benefit of your community or becoming a poker philanthropist. It's about spending money WISELY.
if that is the case i agree with you.
if you define a bankroll as money you use to play poker and make it grow, you are right. 500 pesos is not a bankroll though, it a buy-in.
if you know someone who can turn P500 into a bankroll, wow, i'm willing to invest in him!
all the while i thought you were talking about a REAL bankroll (which by definition is IDEALLY 50X the buy-in of a particular game you will play regularly in). i didnt think you were talking about it in that broad sense.
And one more thing, and i think even nick will agree, poker is not exactly a WISE way to spend money for the average guy hehehe.
but i stand by my opinion. Game selection is a luxury right now for all of us. There is only ONE place where you can go everyday and play poker right now. There are home games and the like, but it is usually tournament, TV style poker. poker in it's purest form is in the ring games. Hand by hand, play by play, hour after hour.
i think most of us campers started out with mediocre rolls or around that amount. i'm sure grouch started out with just 500 bucks. i haven't been playing enough to grow mine. fish has some real cash lying around so he used that.
500 bucks is a buy in in some games, but there are 100 peso games out there like in JG. and the JGPT has very good players as well.
oh and JJ the Duke once turned a 100 peso buy-in into a 1400 profit. :D
That's a great story. Waiting for more. » » »
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