Friday, June 03, 2005

A Lesson Learned

A funny thing just happened in Camp Hold'em today. After reviewing Brunson's Super System's last night, I decided to take some of his words to an extreme. You see, for a few rounds now, I've been playing really solid poker - landing top 2 or 3 almost every single game. Although most of the games had noobs, I felt proud of the way I've been playing. I was patient, I did not call without an out, I played aggressive when I had the nuts. So when I read the Bible again, I realized I've been losing a lot of aggressiveness. I thought of the way I played the last few rounds, and it dawned on me I was making a lot of weak bets or even check-raising. As we all know, check-raising is a very weak move in poker. The Fisherman even commented on how tight I was playing - and I did not want to be known as a tight player. If Gus Hansen and Doyle Brunson were my idols, then how the hell can I be playing tight?! Something had to change.

So the opportunity arose when our friend Edu invited yours truly, Fisherman and No. 1 Rounder to his house for a few rounds of Hold'em. As soon as the first hand was dealt, my mindset was just to play uber aggressive. So I bet even when I just had the smallest possible out - third button, possible set, or drawing a straight or a flush. The first few rounds, I was stealing pots left and right - just the way Doyle would have done. I was an early chip leader. Then, in a twisted turn of events, I was involved in a hand against our friend Gatz, a new player. I had Ad-5h, and the flop came out 3d-9h-4h. Gatz checked, and I raised the pot. He called and 4th Street came out 2h. I had the straight, but I was surprised when Gatz raised the pot. I knew he was either drawing for the flush, or already had it. It was a tough decision for me, knowing if I gave in, he could do the same thing to me again later. I had to protect my new game. I called. The River came out 3h. I had the flush, but I knew Gatz had it too. I knew I was beat. He went All In. My stack was depleted, so I said what the hell. Protect the reputation at all costs. I called. He had Kh-Qh. Good game?

So here I am, thinking of what had just happened. My aggressive play was there, but I was reckless. I think I'm on my way to winning the next few games if I played with not only the same aggressiveness, but also the same solidness I've shown the past few games. I'll update you in a bit. Rounder is going Heads-Up with Gatz. Let's see if Rounder can represent the Camp and take Gatz out.

6 Comments:

Blogger nickg said...

Nice blog tipsy and crew. enjoyed this post.

Question - you say that the checkraise is a very weak move in poker. I'd be interested in some clarification on what you mean by that...to me, and bear in mind I've never been accused of being intelligent, the checkraise is but one potentially powerful tool in poker. My thoughts:

1. Check-raise with the nuts. you do not risk the protective value of a bet when you are holding a nut or near-nut hand. Say on the flop you're starin down at a boat...a checkraise now becomes a valuable pot-building play if the opponents left in the hand have a propensity to fold to an aggressive move. Again, in a positive EV situation, i'll consider a checkraise to extract extra bets from the pot.

2. Checkraise-bluff: by far the boldest move in poker, IMHO, especially in limit. I've only tried this kwazy move once in significant stakes pokuh - 15/30 limit online ring game - in a big pot with no hope of a win. checkraise bluffed and folded the guy. BUT...I think i lost about 134556 minutes of my life. I shall not do it again. I'm serious. I wrote that line 1000 times on the blackboard after ;).

Anyway, just wanted to get clear why you say the check raise is a weak move.

THANKS FOR THE LINK

You're lined to mine too.

Peace

6:05 PM  
Blogger ivegotdnuts said...

Hello Nickg! nice of you to drop by to our blog site. Good point, I sometimes check raise myself and I don't believe its a powerful move yet I don't also believe its a weak move. Actually everything depends on the situation you are in. Playing online made me realize how important this move is especially the check raise bluff, for me it's a very psychological move. :)

6:47 PM  
Blogger boy of destiny said...

Check-raising can be effective when you have the absolute nuts, and you know there's no way for anybody to beat your hand. Otherwise, you're giving everybody else a free shot at the pot that should have been yours already. It's better to let them buy the next card than you give it away for free. Same goes with semi nuts. You're giving someone else a chance to get the best nut. It's a recepe for disaster.

I'm not saying check-raising will never work, because it usually does, IF you have the best nut. It's also better if you do it in 4th street rather than after the flop. But to be an aggressive poker player, it's better to keep betting. That's how you can steal a lot of pots. If you check-raised a hand, then the next hand you bet on which you want to steal, expect a lot of calls. You won't be able to steal pots then.

Again, it's situational. But if you ask the pros, using check-raise as your primary move is considered weak. Most pros play aggressive, and to be aggressive you have to bet. You're not just looking at one hand, but a lot of hands. Overall and in the long run, betting, not checking, is the best bluff. (remember, you can also make a weak bet pretending you don't have anything)

I remember Phil Helmuth saying "play the flop aggressively to determine whether or not you have the best hand, and steal a few blinds along the way".

Anyway, that's just my thoughts and some of the stuff I've learned from experience and from watching the pros.

Thanks for posting nick, I hope I delivered my thoughts on why check-raising for me is weak. Latez.

(BTW, any updates on your tourny?)

7:19 PM  
Blogger nickg said...

Salamat for the answers.

I do not disagree that the checkraise can expose near-nut hands to ruin. And I agree that the checkraise regularly employed turns into a -EV play.

It is, however, a situational play, as is every decision in poker. If I get a read on an opponent, and can comfortably put him on a range on hands, and "even" if I'm holding a near-nut-yet-vulnerable-in-later-streets hand, If I feel I am lamang mathematicaly on any street, I will consider that move.

I will use the checkraise to build pots when I am at least a 2-1 favorite on any betting round. My checkraise effectiveness over 124 times employed over 5 months (see the rarity?) - yes I am a geek and keep spreadsheets on this shit - is 53%. + expectation for me. But I must admit I dumped a big pot today with a checkraise with nut boat on the flop, only to lose to quads when caller hit is fourth of a kind on the river. Oh well. Still a positive expectation play in the long run.

But I concur with your major points. And Fisherman's point that it is a situational, psychological move. I would add positional.

Regarding the tourney...

It's not my tourney. I am helping my friends from FAPA promote it.

You should get answers soon directly from them. But as far as I know you're names are reg'd.

Cheers guys, can't wait to meet you. What are your regular stakes. Perhaps I can sit in one day?

3:47 AM  
Blogger Mr.Benga said...

What's happnin' g? Well as for stakes, sky's the limit as long as it's reasonable. Hopefully, you could sit with us sometime soon. I'm looking forward to the upcoming tourney.

As for these poker strategies you guys are talking about, there isn't really a definite answer to whether check raising is good or not. It really depends on first, the situation, second, your position and lastly, how your opponent plays it. So we can't really tell. Talk about advantages, as far as I'm concerned, advantages aren't really given unless you have the best hand, cause you'll never know what you're opponent/s have. Yes, you may have a strong hand but what if, you're opponent has a better hand? Well it's poker. And nothing is absolute. :)

Just my 2 cents.

1:04 PM  
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5:36 PM  

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